[00:00:00] Speaker A: Let's talk all things about feet. Let's get started.
[00:00:05] Speaker B: Sir. I will live with perseverance in the spirit of taekwondo, courtesy for fellow students, integrity within myself, and to become a black belt leader.
Welcome to the AtA Nation podcast.
[00:00:31] Speaker A: Ladies and gentlemen, students, masters, instructors of Songam Taekwondo. Welcome back to the ATA Nation podcast. This is episode number 101, and I am your host, senior master Zach Hayden. It is a pleasure to be back with you today. I don't know about you, but it's freezing out. I saw little rocks got snow. Texas has got snow.
We've had sub zero temperatures here in Indiana, so training hard so that we can stay warm seems to be the thing to do right now. And hopefully you guys are all staying safe out there and bundling it up. Today's episode, we have an interview from a non martial artist. Well, I shouldn't say that. It's actually a former martial artist that is now a doctor who works with an organization called Gate Happens. Go over to gatehappins.com. Definitely check out their instagram at gate happens. Really cool stuff there. We're talking about feet, feet strength. Some really good information in here for us martial artists. I don't know about you, but I've got issues with my feet that I always have to work on. So definitely check this one out.
[00:01:49] Speaker B: Special guest interview.
[00:02:00] Speaker C: We are super excited to have with us today, Dr. Jen Perez from gatehappens.com. And many of you guys have probably never heard of this before, but I stumbled upon it with another podcast. And as martial artists, we do a lot of things with our feet.
And so I thought this would be a great interview. And if I'm not mistaken, you've done some martial arts yourself, is that correct?
[00:02:28] Speaker D: I have, yeah. I'm a bit out of practice, but 15 years out of practice, to be exact.
But I did. I practiced taekwondo for 13 years. I did make it to first degree black belt. But it's been a little while.
[00:02:41] Speaker C: It's been a little while. You've been focused on other things now, right?
[00:02:45] Speaker D: Exactly.
[00:02:47] Speaker C: So gate happens. Well, let's first tell us a little.
[00:02:51] Speaker E: Bit about your background.
[00:02:53] Speaker D: So, gate happens. In general, what we are, we're an online education company. So our mission really is to help the world build health from the ground up. And what that means is literally starting with your feet. We want everyone to have happy, healthy feet and help that build up to your ankles, your knees, your hips, your spine, everything. So we kind of have two different sides of the business. One to help just general people, help themselves, and then we also have more of a practitioner facing side because the kind of assessments and treatments that we do really working with strength aren't available in a lot of curriculums for professionals. So we actually teach and certify professionals like physical therapists, chiropractors, podiatrists, athletic trainers, take our courses to learn how to do what we do. So we kind of have two different sides there. But, yeah, our mission is really just to share health, especially foot health, with the world.
[00:03:52] Speaker C: Well, I think it's super important.
I always tell my adult students in taekwondo, the number one injury we end up having is like toes. In taekwondo, toes are just, I'm like, they break so easy and they just have these things and whatnot.
As we get into a little bit about foot health, what would be kind of a sign to just the average person that my foot probably is not strengthened the way it should be? What's kind of some indicators that we might see that would tell us, like.
[00:04:28] Speaker E: Hey, I need to do some stuff with my feet.
[00:04:30] Speaker D: Yeah, that's an awesome question. I would say just a couple of simple tests that you can do at home would be, number one, balance.
[00:04:38] Speaker E: Right.
[00:04:38] Speaker D: Especially if we're in the martial arts world, you absolutely have to be able to stand on one leg, right.
So being able to balance for a full minute with your eyes open and a full minute with your eyes closed. I know that's the hard one, right. Because what that does is we have three systems that work together that create our balance. Our eyes, our ears, or vestibular system, and then our feet, which tell us where we are in space. So by closing your eyes, you're relying more on your ears and your feet. So it gives you a little bit of an indicator. So that would be one, being able to do 25 single leg. And this is like a general. There are different numbers for different ages and different genders, but a general, like being able to do 25 single leg calf raises is another really great indicator. You might have to build up to that point. It's much harder than it sounds.
And then just in general, looking at your feet, one of the biggest things that's overlooked is the position of our toes going back to toe strength. So our toes are supposed to be the widest part of our foot. So when you look down at your foot, or even if you look at, like, a baby's foot, their foot is shaped like a slice of pizza, right? Like a nice triangle with the toes as the widest part of the foot. But as we age, because we spend the majority of our day in shoes, at least as adults, shoes typically have a tapered toe, and so our feet start to take on that shape. And so when our toes start to point towards each other and kind of point inwards, that leads to decreased stability, decreased balance, and decreased strength, because in order to use the muscles of our feet, we have to be able to spread our toes. And if we can't do that, then we're already at a disadvantage. So I would say just with balance, calf raises, looking at the position of your toes and whether you can lift up your toes and spread them would be really great indicators of general foot health.
[00:06:30] Speaker C: That's cool.
Since listening to you guys on another podcast and diving into it a little bit more, I regularly will have my students in class spread their toes apart and bring them back together and spread apart and even do the thing where you spread them apart and make a fist basically with your toes.
I test them. Not test them, but challenge them to pick just their big toe up and just their other toes and go back and forth with that, just so they're starting to understand how to move those. And kids are usually better at it just because they haven't been shoved in shoes and they haven't lost some of that walking around barefoot all the time. But, man, when I look at my adults, they're like, it's hard. I can't do any of it, right?
[00:07:15] Speaker D: And that's the really interesting thing. You bring up a good point about kids being even if they can't do it right away, they get it quicker, right? And that goes back to a term called neuroplasticity, which basically means that our brains are adaptable, right? So if you think about your brain as, like, this ever changing, ever morphing structure, it's going to prioritize the things that we do most, right? So, like brushing my teeth and making my coffee or whatever it is that I do every single day, those become habit, and I don't really have to think about those things because that motor pathway is so ingrained. That's like a freeway in my brain or a highway, versus wiggling my toes individually, which is a motion that we probably don't do very often, is like one of those dirt back roads in the backside of our brain that hasn't been used in a while. It's still there, right. It might have some cobwebs and some rocks in the road, so it's really hard to start building that connection again. But the more that you do it, that road starts to get paved and it starts to get a second lane. And then it starts to get easier and easier to go down. So it's absolutely something that can change for the negative if we're not acknowledging it, but it's also something that can change for the positive and we can start to build that connection again if we do start to acknowledge and use our feet more.
[00:08:34] Speaker C: Yeah, that's really interesting because I've done it with adults before and told them that if you can't do it, but then you do it against a wall or whatever or whatnot, to get that big toe up and then down and up and down a couple of times it's so weird because your brain goes, I do remember how to do that. It is a thing. And then your brain goes, oh, wait, now I can do it. And then just like you said that cleaning off that road and just keep it going.
So what kind of things? I'm going to guess. I know balance is a huge thing in martial arts. We've got a great physical therapist that's been running some awesome programs on our organization talking about balance and stuff, the calf raises, doing all those. What are some basic exercises? Some things that if I go, hey, I can tell my foot has issues. What kind of things should I be working on?
[00:09:29] Speaker D: So going back to kind of our previous conversation of building the awareness, building the mobility and building basic strength, those are kind of like the three places I would start. And I'm not a fan of huge in general when I work with patients because I teach courses, but then I also work one on one with patients in person. And I'm not the kind of practitioner that's going to send you home with 15 exercises that's going to get thrown in the corner and never done. Right. I'd much rather give you three. That's going to hit my three main areas and start there consistently because it's going to make a bigger change. So I would say if you want to hit those three areas for your feet, working on mobility, strength and awareness. So for that spread, starting with mobility would be literally interlacing your fingers. It's going to sound gross potentially, but interlacing your fingers between your toes, which oftentimes people can't even do because those tissues are so restricted. So getting them in as far as you can and then just starting to make circles with your hands so that you can start opening up those tissues and getting that passive mobility. And then to your point, the next thing would be, okay, now I need to strengthen those muscles and I need to start actively spreading my toes. That's another great exercise. We call it a lift, spread, reach, but it's literally just lifting your toes, spreading them out as wide as you can, and then reaching them out and lowering them down flat. And that flat part is important because a lot of Times people will start to curl their toes, which is a pattern that we're usually already really good at. That's a compensation that we see for a lot of things. We will grip our toes. So things that we see out there, like the towel grabs or like marble pickups and stuff like that, are great as far as building awareness and doing something with your feet. But typically they're strengthening muscles that are already strong because we already do that motion a lot. Right. So what we want to do is get used to doing the flattening and the pressing, which is going to help us engage our toes rather than grip in order to compensate.
[00:11:29] Speaker E: Right.
[00:11:30] Speaker C: That's really interesting. Yeah, because you see a lot of people talking about that put a towel or whatever and try to bring it in and whatnot. But working on extending, spreading those toes, lift, spread, and then reach out and then push them down more flat. Pressing down versus pulling in. Very interesting.
[00:11:51] Speaker D: Exactly. Yeah. So then we've got mobility, we've got our strength, and then stuff that you can do for awareness. Like you said, we call that toe yoga. So lifting up the big toe by itself, lifting up the outer toes by itself, that's a great one. Another one is honestly just walking barefoot. So walking barefoot on different surfaces is going to stimulate different nerve sensations in our feet. Our feet have thousands of sensory nerve endings that are constantly trying to talk to our brain. But if all we give them to feel is like, nice cushy socks and nice cushy shoes, we're not getting a very mixed message there.
[00:12:23] Speaker E: Right?
[00:12:24] Speaker D: We want variety. It'd be like eating white bread for the rest of your life. So we want some movement nutrients and sensory nutrients for our feet. So walking barefoot on different surfaces stimulates those nerves and gets us to use those muscles more than we would in a shoe. That kind of does the work for us, if you will.
[00:12:44] Speaker C: Interesting. So if we're talking about barefoot martial arts, we do a fair amount, obviously, barefoot in classes and stuff. What do you think about, does a callus make that big a difference? Is that something that because a lot of martial artists have these calluses, I do that. They're just like these giant, thick things. Does that make a difference in that awareness?
[00:13:06] Speaker D: I mean, it will in that one particular local spot, because you're not going to get like. Because the skin is thickened, you're not going to get as much sensory input there. But we have sensory nerve endings along the entire foot, right. So it's not like you wouldn't have a callus under your arch. I'm guessing most likely under the ball of your foot.
There's definitely other areas of your foot where you can still get that sensory input. And then calluses in general are not a bad thing. They're just thickening of the skin in response to load.
[00:13:39] Speaker E: Right.
[00:13:39] Speaker D: So for a power lifter, they're going to have calluses where they're gripping the bar because that area of their hand is under a lot of load. For a martial artist, they're going to have calluses under their feet. Where we're standing on our feet, we're twisting, we're jumping, we're doing all these things where you're going to have increased pressure on the skin. So it's just the skin getting thickened so that we don't end up with blisters. So that's a good thing. In certain scenarios, other scenarios with runners and other athletes, where I'm looking at, okay, maybe these calluses are indicators of where we're putting load, where we shouldn't be. So calluses can kind of tell a story whether they're where we want them to be or whether they're a, painful or b, like, in a location that doesn't necessarily make sense for that activity.
[00:14:25] Speaker C: Okay. That makes a lot of sense with the foot. I know that one of the big issues that we have a lot of, and you can hit whichever one first one is just pain in the toes a lot of times. One of the things we do is break boards, and people will get a toe hit real hard, maybe break it, sprain it, whatever. So we've got toe injuries are probably number one, and then people dealing with plantar fasciitis being another one. So if we could kind of hit each of those and just talk a little bit about what it is and what we might be able to do about it.
[00:15:01] Speaker D: Yeah, absolutely. So toes are, like, kind of one of my favorite things because they get this rap of being this weak thing that's just sticking off the end of your foot. Right. But that's the way that we've built them over time. They're supposed to be really strong.
[00:15:19] Speaker E: Right.
[00:15:20] Speaker D: And so we actually have, in our office, we have a device called a tow dynamometer. There's your $5 word of the day. Right. But do you have one? No way.
[00:15:31] Speaker C: I have one.
[00:15:32] Speaker E: Yes.
[00:15:33] Speaker D: So we have a toe dynamometer. So we can actually get a real number on this measurement.
[00:15:39] Speaker E: Right.
[00:15:40] Speaker D: So what we're looking for is 10% of body weight out of our big toe and 7% of body weight out of our outer toes. And what that means is, when I push down on this device, and it measures basically, like, grip strength for your toes, there's a certain amount of strength that our toes should be able to have to hold us up. I would argue for martial artists, that should be double those numbers, and especially with taekwondo, because you're doing over 60% of your art with your feet.
[00:16:09] Speaker E: Right.
[00:16:10] Speaker D: Those numbers need to be higher. I say the same thing for my ultra runners. Those numbers need to be double. So we need a great amount of strength there. So, number one, it's, are you strengthening your toes and going from general health that we talked about before to performance now we're talking about specific toe strengthening exercises, and there's stuff that you can do with bands. Like, one of the things that we like to do is just take a flat theraband, and I got my foot. So if you guys check out this video later. So if I just take my theraband and place it under the foot and wrap it around the front of my toes, then I can lift up my toes with the band and have to press my toes down into that band again, keeping them flat, not letting them curl. But now I have actual resistance on my toes that I can build specific strength. Another one that we do is like a banded. Like, if you grab, like, an office rubber band and put it around your toes, you can do banded spreading of your toes and really get resistance there so that you can increase strength. So I would say, going back to your question about breaking boards and kicking and all that stuff, right? It's, are the tissues prepared for the amount of load that you need to break that board? And if they're not, the board's going to win.
[00:17:23] Speaker E: Right?
[00:17:24] Speaker D: So we need toes that are stronger than the board. The second thing is, just from my history, is foot position, and it's all about making sure that you're in the proper foot position, because if you're not, the board's going to win regardless of how strong your toes are. Right.
[00:17:39] Speaker C: We have a lot of people that also, it's that mobility with those toes. That's the big issue if you sit.
[00:17:46] Speaker D: In to get them out of the way.
[00:17:48] Speaker C: So, yeah, if you sit in a kneeling position with your foot where you want to bend your toes in, adults often cannot get those toes back that way and getting that mobility in there to hit and get that ball of foot in the right place or whatever is a big challenge for them. So probably just working those probably calf raises are a big one. Probably for that. Working that mobility there.
[00:18:14] Speaker D: Yeah, just stretching the foot.
[00:18:15] Speaker E: Right.
[00:18:15] Speaker D: Like your typical. How you would set up a normal calf stretch, right, where you're, like, facing a wall and you have 1ft back, but rather than doing the calf, where you're pushing the heel down, lift the heel up and stretch the toes. So just doing whatever you can to stretch the toes into that extension, because, yes, you have to have the mobility, which we should have enough mobility to do that. And if we're lacking that, then that's.
[00:18:37] Speaker C: Another sign of dysfunction with the toe strengthening. What this fancy word?
[00:18:44] Speaker D: Dynamometer.
[00:18:45] Speaker C: Yeah, I can't ever say it. Right.
So you probably take a lot of those measurements. How often does someone come in and actually meet those 10% and 7%.
[00:18:57] Speaker E: Across.
[00:18:58] Speaker D: The board, because that's four measurements.
[00:18:59] Speaker E: Right.
[00:18:59] Speaker D: So, like both big toes and both outer toes.
[00:19:03] Speaker E: Sure.
I'm going to say it's less than 50%.
[00:19:09] Speaker D: Yeah, I would say one out of 20.
[00:19:11] Speaker E: Okay.
[00:19:12] Speaker C: I was going to say, I mean, just in the few that I've done, no one's foot is meeting.
[00:19:19] Speaker D: But not to say that they don't get there, so they do get there as we work together.
But also my population is skewed.
[00:19:27] Speaker E: Right.
[00:19:27] Speaker D: Because most people come to me in pain.
[00:19:29] Speaker C: That's true.
[00:19:30] Speaker D: I do have to acknowledge the numbers there. But, yes, I definitely would say. But we do that measurement when we go to expos and stuff. Like if we set up a booth at an expo, we'll do the measurement. So that just as an awareness thing, and even at the expos, so people could be totally pain free. I would say even out of a full day of doing toe measurements, there'll be like five or six that hit those numbers.
[00:19:52] Speaker C: That was going to be my guess. Yeah, it's just way lower. And I'm going to guess, maybe I'll take mine to the stool and do a bunch of them, but I'm going to guess that even out of martial artists, we're not. And that's probably one of the big issues of why we're having these foot issues, is we're just not strengthening those feet when we're working on other things.
[00:20:10] Speaker D: Yeah. And I would say that it goes hand in hand or foot and foot. There's so many football when you work with me. But I would say it goes right along with your question about plantar fasciitis. So plantar fasciitis, which there's a whole terminology thing going on. So I'm going to run with plantar fasciopathy, but that makes it more complicated. But anyways, basically, when you have irritation of the plantar fascia, which is a layer of tissue that lives underneath the foot, right. So fascia. We have fascia all over our body, like, literally from head to toe in different lines connecting all over our body, like spider webs. Okay. But we have this one area of fascia that tends to get irritated, which is underneath the foot. That's our plantar fascia, but all it is is just a soft tissue covering over our muscles. Okay, so I want you to think about if the plantar fascia and the muscles work together.
[00:21:06] Speaker E: Right.
[00:21:06] Speaker D: Like a team project, they should work together. Right. But our foot muscles aren't strong enough to pull their own weight.
Now we're going to ask the plantar fascia to do the work for our muscles.
[00:21:20] Speaker C: Every high school project we've ever done.
[00:21:23] Speaker D: Exactly. Right. Like, what project have you ever done where the work was spread across evenly? Right. So it goes right along with what we were talking about before, is it comes back to strength. And that's not every case. I mean, plantar fasciitis, there are nuances. I mean, this is why I have a job.
[00:21:40] Speaker E: Right.
[00:21:40] Speaker D: It's one of the really common things that we deal with, unfortunately. But I would say the vast majority, if we can just strengthen the feet so that the muscles can handle themselves, then don't rely on the fascia. That would take care of 90% of cases. And then the other ones, there's a nuance of foot mechanics and how we're loading the foot and mobility and all that stuff. But again, vast majority, if we can just strengthen the feet, you're going to help that. And I think that that also, I'm guessing. I don't know for sure, but I'm guessing that you're seeing that in the adult population again.
[00:22:13] Speaker E: Correct.
[00:22:14] Speaker D: So that would go along with. They're probably used to being in shoes. So there's a really fascinating study from Irene Davis and team that they came out with talking about shoes and how they actually weaken our feet and shoes and orthotics and how. Because they're doing the work for.
[00:22:32] Speaker E: It's.
[00:22:32] Speaker D: If you don't use it, you lose it. Right. So because the shoes and the orthotics do the work for us, the feet muscles weaken over time, which reflects everything that we've been talking about.
[00:22:42] Speaker E: Right.
[00:22:43] Speaker D: But then they're like, hey, my kid is loving taekwondo. Let me just jump into this class where I'm going to jump around barefoot, which requires my foot muscles to do all the things.
That's where the foot muscles can't keep up. We're going to use the fascia instead. And now we start to see irritation, right? So it's like, especially for adults, it's almost like there should be, like, an intro protocol, like, oh, cool, you want to do this. If you don't go barefoot all the time, this is new to you. I want you doing this foot strengthening protocol before you start.
[00:23:14] Speaker C: That makes a lot of sense.
[00:23:15] Speaker D: Negates that from happening well.
[00:23:18] Speaker C: And then I think people, the barefoot shoe craze, minimalist shoes. Too often people go, I'm going to go from these clouds that I was wearing before to basically wearing no shoe 12 hours a day to 12 hours a day, when you should probably go, okay, let's just wear these for one or 2 hours for a couple of weeks and then move up from there instead of just be like, hey, I'm going full bore. And then they hurt their foot, and they want to put their old shoes back on.
[00:23:51] Speaker D: Exactly.
[00:23:51] Speaker E: Right.
[00:23:52] Speaker D: And then it's the shoe's fault, right? Yes, I totally, totally agree. Right?
I don't hide anything. I'm about a year postpartum, and the gym and I are still not friends yet. I am so out of shape for what I normally am, but I would not walk into the gym today and expect to go squat 300 pounds. That's not, like, an expectation I have of my body. But then we somehow lose that perspective when it comes to our feet. I think we think of our feet as, like, this totally different structure than the rest of our body, but really, it's filled with hundreds of muscles, and so if we have hundreds of muscles, tendons, and ligaments that have been weakened, we can't just jump right in and go, like you said, from a really high stack height shoe. It's nice and cushy, and we're not used to using those foot muscles to basically going barefoot right away. That's jumping into the gym and expecting to lift 300 pounds. So it would be like, let's transition slowly. Let's start to build up time, whether that's, like, starting with 30 minutes and building up that way or whether it's finding an in between shoe as, like, a step between point a and point c. We need a point b in there for sure. So, yeah, transition is definitely something that has to be respected as well.
[00:25:09] Speaker C: Well, I could ask a bunch more questions because I think this is so fascinating. And one thing we didn't get to, and maybe I'll have you hit just super fast, is just the connection between feet and up the chain, because the other big thing that martial arts, especially taekwondo athletes, have is their hips.
My hip is causing problems, or my flexibility in my hip and all these kind of things. And I think there's such a lack of understanding of how that goes straight up up the chain.
[00:25:43] Speaker D: Yeah, it's a great question. So, I mean, physically, it's literally all connected going back to those fascial lines, right? So I have a line that goes from the tops of my toes up to the front of my hip, and then all the way up, actually, into the front of my neck. And then there's a line that goes down the back of my head, down the back of my body, all the way through the back of the leg and under the foot, which ends up being the plantar fascia. But then there's lines on the inside and the outside of the body as well. So we have all these lines of how it's all connected, and then the muscles work together as well. So we have what's called muscle synergy. So going back to that team project analogy, I don't just fire one muscle at a time. When I go to stand on one leg, my brain doesn't go, fire your flexor hallis longus and then fire your peronius brevis. It's just like, hey, I want to do this movement. Go, team, go. And it has everybody do everything at once. So it absolutely works together. I think the really important point talking about how the foot impacts the hip is not just the coordination and the muscles working together, because that's one piece of the puzzle, but also balance going back to that, because if I'm standing on one leg, expecting to be able to do, like, a series of kicks, right, if I'm doing like a double triple kick or whatever, then I have to be stable on my standing leg, right? And if I was going to balance, would I rather balance on a foot that looked like this?
[00:27:10] Speaker E: Right?
[00:27:11] Speaker D: And for those listening, like my fingers are close together, or would I rather balance on a foot that's spread out and stable and grounded into the ground because it's strong.
[00:27:20] Speaker E: Right.
[00:27:21] Speaker D: And that's where foot positioning and foot strength is absolutely going to affect our balance. Because if I'm on this narrow, not really engaged foot, I'm going to have to pick up that balance from somewhere. And my hip is the thing that's going to be working overtime to try to keep me from falling over. But if I've got this nice, steady foundation, then my hip can just do its job to position me for my kick. It doesn't have to also work to balance me.
[00:27:47] Speaker E: At the same time.
[00:27:48] Speaker C: That makes a lot of sense. Yeah, very good. I think we need to encourage people to go check out gatehappins.com.
You guys have a lot of great things there. I know. I did an online consultation and it was fascinating.
You guys are like wizards with a foot because they're like, do this with your foot and do this with your foot and do this with your leg and do this. And realize, and I had not really put it together, but how much weaker my right side is than my left side. They noticed real big giving a lot of great exercises for some toe injury stuff I'd had. So gatehappens.com, we definitely want to send people over there to check that out. Any last comments or anything for our audience?
[00:28:33] Speaker D: I just want to say thank you guys for listening. And if you have any questions, we love educating, so we're here to help. Whether you contact us via email at
[email protected] or if you follow us on Instagram at gate happens. We put a lot of free content up there as well, but we're here to help and educate and empower. So whatever we can do to put you on the right foot first.
[00:28:58] Speaker C: I love that. I will say the Instagram account is fantastic. Yeah, definitely. Everybody needs to go over there and follow gate happens on Instagram because lots of great content on there. And even, like our taekwondo instructors, some great things that they can learn in there to take to their classes, their adult students, things like that. So thank you so much for your time today, Dr. Perez. We really appreciate it.
[00:29:22] Speaker D: Thank you so much.
[00:29:25] Speaker B: Here's what's going on in ATA Nation.
[00:29:37] Speaker C: I thought that was super cool. Hopefully you guys did as well.
[00:29:41] Speaker A: Some great tips in there for everyone. Now we're going to wrap this up quick because it was a little longer episode. But don't forget, fall Nationals is coming up. It's right around the corner. Head over to atamarshallarts.com to get all the information. Sign up for some of the seminars. Make sure you get registered for all the competition, all those great things. So don't forget it. Until next time, Ata Nation, make sure you're out there taking action.
[00:30:14] Speaker B: Thanks for listening to another episode of the ATA Nation podcast. Be sure to subscribe and share with your ATA family.
[00:30:29] Speaker C: Secret section.
[00:30:31] Speaker A: Make sure you guys are. If you're on Facebook, join us in the ATA Nation podcast Facebook group. That way I can get just a little more feedback, share things with you guys, talk to you about future guests, stuff like that. Of course, make sure you're following us on Instagram because we love to send out information, clips, all that kind of stuff on Instagram as well. So, um, you know, if you've got any questions, any comments, guest ideas, send.
[00:30:56] Speaker E: Us a message later. Bye.
